PRO: Produce, Review, Optimize - marketing with htmx ceo John Dietrich
Alright. So I'm speaking today with John Dietrich. And John, I met on Twitter, and I think I'm just going to do a quick question here.
John:Okay.
Lazarus:Because I you we were just talking about what you do for work, and I said, let's let's record this. Let's actually start the recording now. Alright. So you were you were up all night building a website. What were you building?
John:Yes. So I was building a website for a new venture, it's called Under the Hard Hat. So I work my day job is with a company called SmartBuild, and we do, SaaS software for construction management. So for all the people who love construction, it handles things like RFIs, site reports, safety reports, all of your planning, budgeting, accounting, all that kind of stuff. It was a tool built internally, funnily enough, for a company in Canada.
John:And then and then the guy was the guy who built it was like, hey. This works really well for us. Could probably sell this to other people. So, anyways, up till, like, 1:30 last night working on this under the hard hat piece, which is gonna the idea is it's gonna be, like, the place to go for the actual construction workers in the field. So the product know, focuses more on, like, the project manager level people.
John:And then, this is for all the actual construction workers. So, you know, faithful WordPress site.
Lazarus:Nice. It
John:needs to be needs to be run by people who are who are not necessarily, big fans of technology, so, trying to keep it as simple as possible.
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:But this is yeah. It's It's funny, man. This is, like, the 3rd redo I've done of it because, you know, a lot as always, lots of fun design choices and changes. But
Lazarus:Yeah. So so but you actually are not primarily a programmer. Right? That is true. So so I know you from Twitter as primarily posting about stuff involving marketing and, you know, general sort of HTMX interest, I would say.
Lazarus:Like, this and this is strictly from, you know, my my observations. But I saw that you have the the book Hypermedia Systems.
John:I do. Yes.
Lazarus:And I've seen you post on HTMX stuff many times. So but primarily, marketer with them. Oh, nice. There's the
John:hypermedia system. I'm actually using that book right now to
Lazarus:prop up my my laptop. So it's a little high so that the microphone doesn't completely cover my face.
John:I know. I'm realizing that Many uses. Like, ducking down. You know, you gotta keep that back straight. Yes.
John:No. That that is that is a very apt description. I I am definitely a person who wholeheartedly embrace the HTMX mentality of being the CEO but barely touching HTMX. So Nice.
Lazarus:You know, I've got aspirational HTMX HTMX programmer.
John:Exactly. Exactly. I've got, you know, I've got my CEO HTMX hoodie. You know, I think I update I might have put it on my LinkedIn. Not sure yet.
John:But, you know, I think I've actually the only thing I've done with it so far is the, the, random color tutorial, the 1 that, like, changes the text that just, like, cycles through if you if you go through any of the examples.
Lazarus:So Yep. Okay.
John:That's about as deep as I've gotten into the actual coding side of HTMX.
Lazarus:So far.
John:So far. Exactly. Exactly. But I do, you know, III how did you come across HTMX? Like, what was what was your introduction?
John:Was it just on Twitter? Or
Lazarus:Yeah. So, actually, I would probably say, it was probably Grug Brain. I don't know if you've read that.
John:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Lazarus:Yeah. Yeah. So I came across that and, like, sent it to, like, 3 people I used to work with, because, you know, this was our this was my experience, working at a couple different companies. And I don't know, like just that that's just like, I think anything that's funny kinda hits me in a different way. So I was like, okay, this is like true but also extremely funny, which like is hard to beat.
Lazarus:So then I was like, okay. So like what else is this, you know, this mentality of programming, this mentality of building stuff and and this sort of the ideas that are here, actually, I think are really solid. So, like, what else goes along with this? And then, you know, it's like, oh, okay. This guy also created, like, a web framework or something like a framework, a library.
Lazarus:And so yeah. So I just kinda looked into it
John:and Right?
Lazarus:Yep. Looked into it and it's like it tends to match my, you know, in ways that I didn't even realize before I sort of started using it, it matches the way that I sort of think about, web development in general. And I've been, you know, I've been developing on them for, like, 20 some years now. So,
John:just a just a little bit of experience.
Lazarus:Yeah. No.
John:It's funny that you say that because, like, the the the hypermedia book so I I came across it just completely from Twitter. Like, the you know, I I see horses with laser eyes. I pay attention to what they're saying. You know? Like, I'm gonna just at least pay a little bit of attention.
Lazarus:First time. And,
John:you know, IIII thought it was funny, and then I the first thing I did was I went and started reading the, like, online version of the hypermedia book. And I just remember within, like, the first few pages when it was just kind of, you know, reestablishing and rediscussing, like, what the Internet is, like, how, you know, how it was how it was made to operate. And it just made so much sense. Like, it just it just hit me of, like, oh, yeah. Like, this is really fascinating.
John:And then after after that, you know, then you start getting into all the memes, and then you become CEO. And it just it's like you just start paying attention to it. And I've been really fascinated with watching it, you know, from a marketing perspective of just what seemed like following kinda just, you know, this random guy in Montana has, like, very quickly turned into a major discussion point on Twitter, it feels like, of the value of hypermedia and where this can go. And, you know, it it's it's been really impressive to watch that that transition happen. You know?
John:I think when we were first talking a little bit about, you know, it seems like overnight success, but obviously started with Intercooler and has been around for a long time. But but just this, this trajectory of watching HDMX take over has just been fascinating from from a side of, you know, a, the technology is interesting, and then, b, just from the side of, like legitimately just memeing it into the zeitgeist. It's super impressive when people can pull that off. So
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean and so 1 of the reasons I kinda wanted to, like, talk to you about some of this stuff is I think, you know, I get I have my own perspective on just like web development in general, but also on sort of HTMX and building stuff that is very much focused on the developer side of it. And I think, you know, 1 of the things that I wish I understood more was the marketing side of everything.
John:Mhmm.
Lazarus:And I feel like, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you maybe are in the reverse of that situation. You have a lot of marketing experience and I mean, you're already building stuff. So you're already a developer. But it sounds like you're well, you've built so I'll just give a little background too too. Like, your your dev chops, you have also built an online game, which is Lemonade Stand.
Lazarus:Right? Is that that's the right name?
John:Yes. That's the 1. That was, that was kind of the first thing I ever built where programming started to make sense to me. You know, you change a number, and then there's a very visual representation of that change and immediately was a huge benefit for someone like me. It's just I you know, to be able to just do it through, you know, trial and error and guessing and maybe even if I don't fully understand, like, why it was working on as, like, a, you know, in a in a, in a mathematics capacity, I could just be like, okay.
John:Well, if I change this number to a 2, oh, now he flies off the screen. Okay. That's no good. What about if I try a 1? And then, you know, and you can
Lazarus:just keep kind of
John:tinkering, but you get that immediate feedback. And that was, it was huge for me in just being like, oh, I think I can do this. Like, I think I you know? And then and then it leads down to whole a whole bunch of different paths of how like you said, even just in the game, you can go down different rabbit holes. Now it's, like, oh, now I wanna learn more about, you know, vectors, and what does that actually mean?
John:And and you just start digging into it more and more.
Lazarus:And so
John:that yeah. Game development was vital for me and my even just in my self confidence of, like, oh, I think I could actually, like, program some things. And, you know, now I'm learning about, like, pointers and c, and it's like, what? What about these things? Yeah.
Lazarus:Oh, yeah.
John:So Yeah. I mean do the same thing with marketing. You know? Can you just you if you find something interesting, then you get to dig into it, and you just start you just start investigating why it works and and what is interesting about it to you.
Lazarus:Yes. So this was, you know, I I sort of asked you ahead of time or we sort of talked ahead of time about, you know, 1 possibility for for, talking today is, like, we each bring a particular topic to kind of like, you know, 1 1 topic to talk about. So, I don't know if you if you've got something in mind or not, yet. If you do, that's good. But I I also so yeah.
Lazarus:What do you think?
John:III did not. I
Lazarus:Okay.
John:This is great.
Lazarus:Well, that well, that's well, this is good.
John:And as I mentioned to you earlier, I got very anxious about doing this and for some silly reason, and I just could not make a decision on what to do.
Lazarus:So this this works out nicely because Okay. What what I am thinking for for my version of the topic is, you know, because we're sort of coming at it from these different sides, but I think that I wanna know more about your side and I think you wanna know more about my side. So So so my concept for a topic is that I will ask you something about marketing and then it and then you ask me something about, you know, web development in general. So you pick my brain about web development and I'll pick your brain about marketing.
John:I love it. Does
Lazarus:that sound that sound good? Okay.
John:Yes. That sounds great.
Lazarus:Alright. I'll go first. So Okay. Marketing.
John:What is it?
Lazarus:It's like, and I mean this in, like, what you just said is, like, literally what I am trying to figure out. So, like, you know, I have my concept. I I have my own business. So, like, I Mhmm. At some level, of course, I understand, like But my version of marketing has been, you know, I did a little bit of cold outreach where I like I knew who my customers were and I tried to call them and like that was so depressing and actually got people mad at me.
Lazarus:Yep. And like I was like okay well this is not working because like I can't have my my small pool of potential customers just like angry at me for disturbing them. Like this is this is bad. So, okay so so my question like maybe maybe I wanna start you know what is marketing is the big question but like Yeah. What do you actually like, what do you do all day when you're, you know, not developing, not when you're doing the marketing part of your role?
John:Yeah. No. I mean, it's a great question. And the the interesting thing about marketing and also the worst thing about marketing is that it really touches every single part of a business. Like, when you when people use marketing in 2 different ways.
John:1 is the people who are actually in the industry and focus on what they're trying to accomplish as far as the main goal is bringing in customers and driving revenue. Right? At the at the end of the day, if you're not focused on that, then you're just really trying to win awards and, you know, make yourself feel good. There's no point in doing that. And then there's the other thing where people just go like, I don't know what it is.
John:Like, I'll just throw it under marketing. So, you know, in in as an example in my current role, you know, I am a part of basically every department's discussions about what's going on because there is a marketing role to be had in every area. So from a development side, the my marketing situation is usually like, what's coming down the pipeline? What features are we are we working on that we need to be discussing with our customers? And then on the flip side, I've been talking to customers about how they're using the platform, and I'm realizing that they really need this.
John:Is this something we can add to the road map? Then I go and have conversations with the sales team who go, you know, hey. We're trying we wanna talk to this group of customers. Can you pull the data on, you know, this this, association, and how do we, who do we want to talk to, and building relationships with membership directors so that we can get in front of more of the actual members. You know, you you oh, go ahead.
John:Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.
Lazarus:Yeah. So so okay. So I'm already, like I just I wanna make sure I'm I'm following. So but there is already a separate so so your company is is on the larger side, it sounds like, first of all.
John:You know what? We're well, we're a small team, but we, you know, we are we are in a very strong growth period. So there's a lot of a lot of focus on different things at
Lazarus:right now. So so you do have a sales team that you consider We do. To be market separate from the marketing team. So what what's that distinction? Just you can, you know?
John:Yeah. I mean, it it there's obviously, there's gonna be lots of overlap. But, the main distinction is that the sales team is the 1 actually doing the doing the calls, and and they're following up when we get them to a certain stage. So on the marketing side of it, our goal is to is to handle that top of funnel, so attract as many potential customers, as we can and filter them through what we've decided is important and what we think makes a good customer, and then turn them over to sales to actually, you know, get them involved, do the demos, sign them up as part of the to get them into the ecosystem. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, sales and marketing are combined under 1 department, and and we work very closely together, obviously.
John:But but our main goal you know, what we look to do on the marketing side of it is to identify where those people are, get engaged with the people, the potential customers that we wanna talk to, and then, the last step before we kinda hand them off is start to qualify them to be like, okay. Yeah. These guys actually seem interested. Sales, it's time for you to to get in and and actually discuss the do the demos and and close them as a as a new customer.
Lazarus:Okay. So interesting. So I feel like I have been thinking of the mark like when I think of my own company and and my own sort of role in this and and like where I think I've been thinking of marketing as really it's the sales part that I've been doing at some level is like, that's when I do the demo and that's when, you know, we sort of so so that wouldn't necessarily the marketing part would would usually come before that through some other form of communication. Now is that like you're talking about like finding them where they are So that's, like, in person Yeah. Forums, email, all of the above?
John:All of the above. Yeah. So, you know, our how and, again, everyone kinda can handle this differently, but in our side, you know, we look at, like, trade shows as a marketing arm. And so, like, trade shows is something that marketing team handles with the intent of getting warming up all those leads, finding the right people. So picking the trade shows that we're going to, and picking figuring out the reasons why we think they're useful and then, you know, gathering the the lead lists and starting to build those conversations.
John:And then same thing with, like yeah. Part of our team goes through and spends lots of time, you know, scouring things like Reddit and social media and, like, finding what people are talking about. There are, interestingly enough, some some, construction management, like, project software subreddits who are talking about, like, hey. This software stinks. Like, we and then we go, hey.
John:Have you checked us on the email? And, like, I get I get involved in those conversations. So, you know, we we kinda handle it's it's an interesting piece because we handle that top of funnel funnel part, but then also once the sales have closed and it gets passed off to to support, that's another part where marketing gets the touches in because now we're we've got customers that we want to discuss, build case studies about, figure out what they like about the platform, what they don't like about the platform, you know, provide try and turn them into people who are going to spread the word about us because they just think what we're doing is so great. So that's, you know, that's why, like, marketing is such a is such a a weird space, because I I always, in my mind, split it up into kind of there's a couple different areas. So, like, marketing is in my mind has always been more of, like, the the data side of things, like gathering data, figuring out who you wanna talk to, identifying your audience.
John:Then there's the the, like, advertising and branding side of things, which is more the crafting the message for that audience that you've identified and putting out the materials and the ads and the and the content that speaks to those, those actual potential customers. And then the last side of it is that then there's the the the support side is like, okay. Now that you have customers, how are you engaging with them and keeping them interested in your brand and and all of that kind of stuff? So the I marketing to me has always been about and this is probably influenced heavily because of the fact that I've focused most of my career on digital marketing. It's like, how do we how do we gather the right data so we know where the people that we wanna talk to are and what they're talking about and what message makes sense so that we can meet
Lazarus:them there? So okay. So the data part, I get, like, you know, as just someone who works with data all the time and I can research stuff, I'm used to online research and sort of bonus stuff. I think the part that you're missing from your description of the these 3 sides, you know, the data collection, the what was it? The second 1.
John:The, like, the the messaging, the actual Yeah.
Lazarus:The the messaging. Yeah. And then the support. Yep. But nowhere in there did you mention, know, you have to be on you know, you have to be on like, if you go to it you're the 1 going to the trade show, right, not the sales team?
John:Yeah. So, so for our specific 1, it's, usually sometimes it's myself and, like, the founder and a sales team member. Sometimes it's just me in sales. Depends on the size of the the event and and what the purpose is. So, like, there and that's where that's where kind of the data gathering side comes in.
John:Because there are events that make sense where you might be able to close some deals right then and there, and then there are lots of events where it's just like, we just need to be there to talk about what we do and and meet the right people. And so there's, you know, the interesting thing with, like, an HTMX, for example, you know, like, it's Carson. Right? Like, it is it is it is him, and he he does everything. And when you have, like, a smaller business, where it's very much on the founder who's in charge of mostly everything else, To me, that's always been if you have a founder who understands social media, there is no marketing department that can beat somebody who is active and engaged on social media, and knows how to how to play that game because that's people love hearing from the person who runs the organization.
John:It's just it's that personal touch, and if they're good at it, if they're if they're good at they understand they're like, at at at the core, what Carson does so well is, like, he understands what he is. Like, he, you know, he's he's very true to what the the message that he's putting out, so it's like it doesn't it never comes across as somebody pretending to be something. It just comes across as, like, you know, this is who I am. This is what I built. I'm here to have some fun on Twitter, and it comes across as genuine.
John:And people pick up on that and and and they really enjoy it. When you're in a team with when you have, like, a slightly larger organization, it's tougher to to replicate that across, across the different across the different departments. And, if you don't have a founder that's, like, interested in doing it, it's it's a it's a tough sell. But I think when you're in, you know, like, for no. No.
John:You really can't. You know, you watch you watch other companies try and force it, and you and, you know, you get cringeworthy posts that everyone makes fun of for being cringeworthy. So, you know, when you're when you're a small business owner and, you know, you're you're the 1 in charge, you have a really cool opportunity to just be authentically who you are. And if if you take that data
Lazarus:side of
John:marketing and look at, like, where are the people that I wanna speak to and and I and I wanna meet them where they are, you can start to find, you know, you can you can just be who you are in those spaces, and you'll attract the right people. Like, it just it it can come very and it's a huge it's 1 of the coolest things that I've enjoyed about, anybody who does social media marketing really well. They are there is that element of authenticity and it just resonates with people.
Lazarus:Interesting. So, you know, a lot of my stuff is so I'm just trying to think of, like, applying this to my world. Yeah.
John:Well, can I can I interrupt you and just ask you a question? Like, where where do the people you wanna talk to like, where do they hang out? And it might not be online. It might you know, and that's okay. But that's that's how you craft the strategy.
John:Right? It's first identifying that piece of the puzzle.
Lazarus:Yeah. So the thing about my end though what I'm so I'll just say, like, I have a couple different projects. The 1 that I own, you know, fully and and, am sort of the most invested in, the 1 that has a part time employee, is a constituent service database, for elected officials, and it's in Massachusetts where I live and, you know, I think part of the goal is to make it more than just Massachusetts. But for now, I know who my customers are. You know, I have a list of all the elected officials, that are at the state house in Boston, senators, representatives.
Lazarus:I know some of their staffers. You know, so the world of that is not you know, it's small, but it can be good. It's it's connected. Yeah. Yeah.
Lazarus:And so that's kind of what has driven it so far. I used to work at the state house, so I know the world a little bit, and we have a bunch of clients. And I would say we do almost no marketing, right now. And part of it is just because I don't quite know what to do for it.
John:That that's fair.
Lazarus:Yeah. I'll I'll tell you I'll tell you 2 things we did last year, actually. You know, we've released a whole bunch of features and we we released an app and I basically did no marketing for any of those. But what we did do is at the beginning of last year, we I I had some very nice, notebooks with
John:Mhmm.
Lazarus:A gold foil imprint of the state house in Massachusetts printed on it. And we went around and and, you know, the, the employee, she gave every 1 of our current clients and their staff 1 of these little notebooks. Mhmm. And, you know, those costs, like, worked out to maybe, like, I don't know. I wanna say, like, $15 for each 1 or something like that.
Lazarus:So it was like a couple maybe $1500 or something total, $2, 000. And after that, we saw our biggest increase in users for, like, a a new session. So that was 1 thing.
John:Yeah. So, I mean, that's hard to
Lazarus:You know, I feel like that was a success. It's hard to sometimes match up, like, what happened. I we also released the app around then so maybe they found out about the app. The other thing I did was we held an event at this near the state house. So so it's very hard for me to identify what was whether that was a success or, know, those other factors like they're always in, it's happening.
Lazarus:I released the app within a month of that, and we also, it was a new session, so there was a bunch of new legislators coming in and we picked up quite a few of them. So whether the books did it, I don't know. Attribution
John:is, like, the biggest problem in marketing. It is so challenging, so you are not alone. Yeah. You know, this is AAA sorry. I a really small example of, like Yep.
John:You know, you remember those, like, Mac versus
Lazarus:PC ads? Yep.
John:You know, most people look back at those and def and go, like, those were hugely
Lazarus:successful. Right.
John:And they probably were, but what they also don't always think about is guess what device came out right around the time those ads started coming out.
Lazarus:It wasn't the iPhone, was it?
John:It was the iPhone.
Lazarus:The the mildly popular iPhone.
John:Yes. Exactly. And it's just you know, it's 1 of those tough things, and, you know, I could I'm sure if you talk to the marketing department, they're gonna tell you that it was the ads that drove more interest in Apple that helped promote the iPhone, and I bet if you talk to product, they're gonna talk about, you know, it was their stellar new product that drove everything, and and and they're probably all right. And that is, you know, that is the hard part. And so you are in my mind, you face a problem that everybody faces, and and it is 1 of the toughest things about the industry.
Lazarus:Yeah. At least in this case in this case, it was a good you know, it was like Yes. Well, something good happened so what's the cause? So that's a that's a that's a better problem to have than something bad happened than what's the cause. Definitely.
Lazarus:Definitely. So the other thing I did was I we held a an event which I've never done before and just, you know, talk about anxiety, like organizing parties and events and, like, shout out to my, the employee, my partner, and the on this who basically organized everything, but, just getting, like, organizing a a kid's party is difficult, you know, for me. So, like, having this event with, you know, 40 elected officials and all their staff and trying to pull it all off and get the right location and all this kind of stuff. So, super, you know yeah. Kinda allowed to do it.
Lazarus:And I would say after that, you know, we did the event. I would qualify it as, like, pretty low success. Like, I was glad, you know, I think it was worth trying and Yeah. Like people there were seemed happy. They got free food and, you know, drinks and stuff and that was good.
Lazarus:But it was like a couple $1, 000 and I don't sit think we got, you know, any new clients from it would be my my impression. We did invite people who were interested in, you know, learning about it. So it wasn't just our current clients. It was like you can bring a friend kind of thing and some some elected officials showed up but I don't think we got any new clients from that. So, you know, both of these were experiments a couple $1, 000 and like of the 2 I would say the notebooks is seem to be because now every everyone carries the notebooks around with them, you know, in the state house.
Lazarus:So I that seemed to be the successful 1.
John:I mean, swag is there's no arguing that swag is not a popular, thing. So, you know, I and and I think the fact that, you know, you ident in my mind, and I'm speaking as a, you know, very much a person who does not know or understand anything about your industry, so can is very willing to admit that I could be totally off. But you it seems like you identified something that they are that they might find useful in a notebook. You made something that people would want to carry around, so you made it nice. And I'm assuming your branding was on there.
Lazarus:So I I chose to do a very light branding. So Yeah. It it was there was a gold foil thing of the state house Yeah. Like covering the front. And then there was a embossed, like just the impression of our logo underneath it.
John:Cool.
Lazarus:So only the people so, yeah, it wasn't, you know and that was kind of a a choice sort of my own maybe it's my own fear of, like, trying to, like, push too much logo stuff, but I just thought they would use it more if it felt like, you know, my whole goal is to make it feel like our system is just a part of their work at the statehouse. Like it's almost like an official statehouse thing. So that was part of the thinking for that was, like, I don't want to make it yeah.
John:No. I like that. And, I mean, you know, if it's something that people are going to carry around, and again, if since you made something that is nice, you know, people are gonna stop them most likely and say, oh, that's nice. Where did you get that?
Lazarus:Right. Yeah.
John:And, you know, and that's the conversation. And it can be as simp you know, marketing can be as simple as that conversation starting somebody's interest in what you do of, like, oh, conversation starting somebody's interest in what you do. Of like, Oh, you got it from this company? What do they do? And then if you if you are building a product that is useful and and you have people who are willing to talk about how much they enjoy it, I mean, you just you don't beat that ever with with any other no no matter how clever your marketing can be, nothing will ever top somebody that uses your product talking about it to somebody else in a positive way.
John:I mean, so so if that notebook happens to be the conversation starter, like, yeah, you know, there's definitely opportunities where that you could see return on that.
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:And and so I, you know, I think anyways, again, I obviously don't you know, I'm speaking completely as a person who does not know anything about it or has looked at any of your your back end data or anything. But
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:You know, I on a on a theoretical level, I can understand where that works, and I can see why, you know, why you might have you might have gotten more business from that over an event, which it's always tough because it's not to say that the event couldn't drive traffic, like, or or drive sign ups to to your to your product, but, you know, that's a it it's a tougher it is a tougher sell of what people are expecting and and how those, like, more natural conversations are gonna come up, over time.
Lazarus:Yeah. Yeah. And we sort of sold it as, like, a thank you to our clients. Yep. You know, who are gonna hold this event, and it's just gonna be mostly our clients and they're gonna hang out and have a good time.
Lazarus:And we didn't try to push anything. We gave them a little, like, folder of stuff.
John:Well, that's you know, so so that I'm glad you said that because that that puts a whole in my mind immediately, that just puts a whole different spin on the purpose of the event, and and, like, and and then so maybe it was successful in what you were actually trying to accomplish.
Lazarus:Right.
John:You know? Yeah. Because, like, not everything not everything is going to be not everything you do in a branding or marketing sense is necessarily going to be, like, the revenue driver. But you showing appreciation for your customers, getting to know them more, making sure that you're, you know, a friendly face, has value that plays out even if it doesn't show up as, like, we ran this event and got, you know, 10 more sign ups.
Lazarus:Yeah. Although, I do remember that the very first thing thing you said when we started talking about marketing was that the whole purpose is to drive revenue and get customers. And if you're not doing that, then right? Did I did I hear that also?
John:You did. You did. And, yes, you called me out. And I I now I have to backtrack on my own words. But, yes, it is the the main goal is to drive revenue.
Lazarus:But, I mean, always you
John:it should always be your main focus. And and but some of your some of your potential revenue drivers might be much, a much longer time frame where it's not even worth considering them as revenue drivers in the moment. Yeah.
Lazarus:It's a
John:tough sell.
Lazarus:Now happy customers is a good thing, and you can do that with more than just the product itself. Like, an event like this may have you know it may have helped some people kind of like just you know be kind of happy to be part of the community of using the system and stuff like that.
John:Well, exactly. And it might even have been you know, this is, again, tougher stuff to to know for sure or justify, but it could have been somebody who was you know, it could it could be the difference between taking somebody from just being a user to somebody who is going to speak about your product. Or it might take somebody who was, like, considering looking at other options, and then they go, you know what? I actually like this guy. I think I'm just gonna stay.
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:And, you know, you might not ever be able to get that information from it. And so my only suggestion on from a marketing side, especially if you're, you know, whenever you're working with, like, limited budgets is you you still you still have to do some of this stuff, but, you know, make sure you can you can justify it. It's just it's a different approach when, you know, you've got a 100, 000, 000 in VC investment and when you're bootstrapping something yourself and, like, where you can focus your your your marketing dollars.
Lazarus:No. Exactly. We are a very small bootstrapped kind of company, you know, at this point. So I think, like, that sort of consideration was a big part of it. Like, my after the fact, I was like, you know, like, we spent a couple $1, 000 on each of these 2 things and 1 of them just feels like it it drove a lot more.
Lazarus:So, you know, I think it's like, not that it was a bad thing. It might have done some some good stuff, but, yeah, that's like a longer term thing.
John:Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. And and and that that really you know, to just go to my early point of, like, why that's why focusing on the revenue drivers is the important piece.
John:And then as you grow, you can always, you know, you can always add in some of these pieces. But it's so funny. Like, I I legitimately have and I don't know if you've I mean, having coded some things, I can feel I feel like this relationship probably exists for many developers, but, like, there's such a strong, love hate relationship internally with me when it comes to marketing because there are so many things that it can be and and it can get applied to, And and it's so there's there's just that combo of art and science to it where it's like, you know, you can get all the data in the world and think you're making all the right decisions only to realize that you were wrong. But it's like but it also doesn't negate the value of actually gathering all that data and trying to use it. You know?
John:And so it's just, but there is an art to it. I mean, you still need to, you know, take risks and try things and trust your gut on, I think this might work, and, like, I think people might be interested in this, so I'm going to do it. And then that's where to me, that's where the data comes in of, like, can I then hopefully try and justify it after the fact?
Lazarus:Right. Right. So let me see. Let me try and do some takeaways here for for my sort of question on what is marketing and why do you do it. So
John:I mean, I'm glad you started with, like, the easiest question, obviously. You know, like, defining marketing is is by far the
Lazarus:the
John:easy 1. Yeah.
Lazarus:So okay. So the big thing that I could apply to my stuff is spending probably more time, the most achievable thing right off the bat, and sort of the intro, is spending a little more time working on the data for who is who are our potential clients. And using that, then that can maybe even drive like the next step which is like how do we reach those potential clients, you know. Is that an event? Is that a trade show?
Lazarus:Is that a, you know, what what does that maybe the data tells you that if they're all happened to be, for instance, going into the state house every Thursday, that's useful information.
John:Yeah. No. Exactly.
Lazarus:Yeah. So okay. So so from my side, I could spend some time on the data first and then just sort of see where that leads before going to the other steps. The other steps would be, you know, starting to use that data to do some outreach, figuring out what that outreach looks like, whether it's, you know, email, call, in person. And then from there, ideally, you know, there we don't have a separate sales team or something like that, but just mentally making those 2 different things, I think makes each 1 maybe a little easier to to manage.
Lazarus:Even if it's me, just me doing both or, you know, my employee doing both. If the the actual tasks are considered a little separately, that's actually probably helpful.
John:Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, they do they do have, they do have slightly different expected expected outcomes. Right? Like, the the goal of doing the data gathering and and analyzing where your customers are, it its main goal isn't, like, get new customers right off the bat.
John:It's, like, inform where we're going to, have those conversations, which then drives the customers. So if you keep those separate, then you can kind of be like, okay. I'm spending time figuring out who I'm going to talk to. And through that, I've I've decided I'm going to, you know, do XYZ. And then you can kinda shut that off in your brain and say, okay.
John:Now this now I'm going to turn on my sales hat, and I'm gonna try and and reach these customers, based on this information that I just I was able to get from my marketing department, even if it's just
Lazarus:you. Yeah. And that's like a skill I think that as, like, as a developer, I think there's a big overlap in the skill of 1 of the biggest things that I do is take large things that need to happen and break them down into smaller management things. And I that to me feels like what you're talking about, sort of dividing up the the marketing and the sales and the parts of the marketing. I mean that feels like the same skill as when I take on a big project and, you know, I'm almost doing the same thing.
Lazarus:I have these phases. I have I break the phases down into different things and then sort of, you know, follow my path that I know works with some room for, you know, moving stuff around if I need to kind of thing. Yeah. And always I like that. That
John:in the same way that I would imagine when you're developing, you know, you leave room for that experimentation area of, like, you know, this is the path I'm going down, but I'm gonna I I have a I have a feeling, and I wanna try this. And then if you if you back that up with, you know, analysis afterwards of, like, oh, did that work? Then you can always, you know, you can always adjust your path or add to what you're working on, you know, on any given day. It's just it's it's the that little bit of experimentation goes a long way, because it you know, if you don't have that, then you're you're definitely gonna miss out on on opportunities. But, you made me think of when I was, like, 21, I think.
John:I was working for a marketing agency and I just remember coming up with this not to say that I was the first person. I'm sure many people had a very similar thought process. But I used to just go by this mentality of what I ended up dubbing the pro plan, which is just like which is just produce, review, optimize. And, like, that is the mantra that I've tried to carry out through every company that I've worked with. Like, you
Lazarus:Nice.
John:Whether it's, whether it's, you know, a marketing, strategy or, or a sales call, you you do the thing with your the best knowledge that you have. You review how it went, and then based on that information, you optimize it. And if you you know, I just find that it's such a powerful way to do things because you're never gonna go into it being like, oh, I know that what I'm doing is exactly right because you never will know for sure. But if you go in with, like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna pay attention to what happened, and then I'm gonna change it.
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:I mean, you know, it it just compounds.
Lazarus:And okay. So wait. Did you did you say that you were not sure if you came up with it?
John:Well, I know I came up with the specific pro plan and the 5 slide PowerPoint that I created for myself, but I don't Yeah.
Lazarus:I mean, I got it.
John:Think I I, you know, I don't think I'm the first person that ever, you know, came up with a a system of, doing something, reviewing it, and optimizing it.
Lazarus:No. No. But the the fact that it spells out pro is extremely good. Yeah. No.
Lazarus:That's I love that. And so this this segues nicely into Blair, you know, my next thing. So the first part is me learning a little bit about marketing from you, and the next part is is you learning some more about web programming and HTMLX for me, and I would say that, like, produce, review, optimize, like, I mean, this is the this is the mindset of a developer also, you know, and you had you need just like you're talking about with the marketing. This is experimenting, trying something out. You cannot learn in theory, you know, you can't read a book and learn how to obviously, once you've learned enough, a book is useful, to kind of like reorient your ideas, but even then you still need to try them out to see, you know, if it works.
Lazarus:So so let me ask you, when you let's say that you, wanted to build something in and and we're gonna use h tmx because this is an h tmx podcast. So Yeah. Yeah. So let's just imagine that you wanted to learn, you know, web programming, HTMX. You've said you've built just sort of an example so far.
Lazarus:Yep. So what is your setup for development? And do you do you have a setup for development right now?
John:So in regards to setup, do you mean, like like, do I have an ID that I use? Do I like, what do what
Lazarus:Yeah. I guess the whole thing
John:More like an approach, I guess, to develop.
Lazarus:No. No. Not an approach. Like just like the nuts and bolts of, like, if you sit down if if someone had said, like, I need you to make an h tmx, like, website or just like a front page right now, like, what would that look like? What program would you open?
Lazarus:Do you have like a web server running? What's your back end? Like, what's your setup for programming?
John:Gotcha. Okay. So yes. So I I do, and it's so funny because I I mentioned it a little bit before, but this was always the biggest barrier for me. And finally learning how to kind of make this work was, like, oh, the coding's actually not as hard.
Lazarus:Yeah. Well, this is why I'm asking first because this is the big barrier for people who are are starting something like that. Okay. So yeah. 100%.
Lazarus:So what do you got so far?
John:So I've just recently started. So III code on a Mac, and I just recently started using the zed, development ID, which is, you know, just it's a it's a text editor similar to, like, a a Versus Code or a, Sublime Text.
Lazarus:Okay.
John:So it's like it's it's kinda like a, you know, but it it is very fast. I found it's very lightweight. So I use that. And then because I'm on a Mac, I also just, you know, I also have, like, MySQL that runs in the background. And then if I'm launching a web server, oftentimes, depending on what it is, I'll just run a, the Python, the HTTP, whatever the heck it's called, just to start a quick local server.
John:Yep. What is it called now? And now I can't think of it. But, but yes. So I kind of just do that.
John:But then I've also you know, for example, when I've done some dev work for the company I'm working for, they have to use, it's an oh, it the original when I started was on, dot net 4. So I had to actually buy a Windows PC in order to be able to use it.
Lazarus:Yeah, man. Yep.
John:Yeah. But that's that's where we started. And so, so for for that, then yeah. So that 1, I, what was I trying to say? That uses, whatever the built in 1 is for Visual Studio.
John:Now, again, I can't remember. This is this is literally how I work in coding all the time. It's like, I did this thing, and, like, I sort of remember how to
Lazarus:do it. Yeah.
John:I don't remember.
Lazarus:So But,
John:yes, as of right now, Zed, I would open up Zed. I would use, I would, you know, probably use the original the HTMLX, like, get repo for some of the examples, and then I would be able to build out it and run a server on my, Mac is what I would do.
Lazarus:Okay. So run a server on your Mac. And you're talking about, like, a Python server?
John:Yes. Yes. So I've Python has, like, a built in module.
Lazarus:Okay.
John:Yeah. So
Lazarus:I haven't Pretty well. Okay. So that's good. As long as I mean, the main thing is that it works well. Like, that's like think like, you know, my, like, biggest advice to anyone starting out is like it's not trivial to set up your development environment in a way that is, like reliable and so that you don't have to think about that part of it, anymore.
Lazarus:So if the pipe so and when you program, are you programming in Python? Like, do you use, like, Django or or what do you sort of, like, use for it's, like, just the Python part is just the server part?
John:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I've been using with, like, with, like, HTMX because, I when I that so for that so I guess I should be more clear. So, yes, it uses Django. Oh my gosh.
John:I'm so foolish on this stuff. I've this is I've never been good at picking 1 program language to go with. So I've started multiple random HDMX projects with different back ends to just Yeah.
Lazarus:No. I think I'd yeah. Nothing wrong with that. I think that's good.
John:And so I'm like I'm like, yes. I have done 1 with using Django, and and then I've also tried 1 with, a, like, a JavaScript back end and doing, like, you know, using like Node and yeah, like Django. The most Yeah. With HTML specifically.
Lazarus:Okay. Okay. So but if you had to sit down and do a hello world with with HTMLX, you feel like what's your confidence level on, like, being able to do that, let's say, in, like, 10 minutes, 5 minutes?
John:In, like, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, I would say my comments level is a 6, and I would probably end up though using Django.
Lazarus:Okay. So you'd probably go for you have, like, some command that you that you've, like, either got copied somewhere or or you remember to start up the Django or the, you know, the Python sort of server running. Yes. Yes. Okay.
John:I use PowerShell, so I have some functions saved.
Lazarus:Okay. Good. Good. Yeah. So as long as you have that, you know, I think it doesn't really matter what you use, as long as you can reliably, like you don't want to have that be a barrier every time you sit down.
Lazarus:And this is something that I I've worked with since sort of trained, you know, a bunch of developers at my previous job. And I think like getting this out of the way. So, so I use like Laravel, in the Laravel ecosystem, and they have a couple tools for this kind of thing, which is which are nice.
John:There was an article that just an HTMLX article about Laravel, wasn't there?
Lazarus:Oh, yes. And that was yes, exactly. Yep.
John:Yeah.
Lazarus:No. And I mean, it's a it's a great combo but mainly just because Laravel is set up to make things easy for, you know, just general sort of, you know, it's a it's a PHP server, but, you know, they have this tool called Herd. They have a couple tools that that are basically like an application you install and as long as it's running, you have a server running. So you just need to, like, you know, have your your project in the right folder and then your so it's, you know, I'm not going to recommend you just you'd learn some new thing or something like that right now. If if you have a way to run code and have it, you know, so you can run Ajax and and that.
Lazarus:If you feel comfortable with that, if you feel good about that, then I wouldn't recommend changing it. But I think it's extremely important to have that sort of environment set up where you can just step into it without thinking about it.
John:You know, I think I probably I I actually think that's really good advice and I probably need to to do that even more strictly with myself. Because even just you talking about it, the that is my biggest problem is I cannot help myself. I just, like, I wanna go see what this does. It's the same reason why every device in my house, for some reason, can SSH into every other device. Like, I don't ever do I don't do it.
John:I don't ever do it, but I just thought it would be interesting to set up, and so I did.
Lazarus:Yeah. Well, I feel like those kind of exploratory instincts are gonna be extremely useful for you. So, like, I wouldn't I wouldn't want you to stop, you know, trying out random setups and stuff like that. Yep. But I do think there's a value in having a default that you don't have to think about.
Lazarus:So
John:I like that. I actually really like that. I and I think that I think you are very correct. Just even just thinking about, you know, how I approach it in general, that is a that is a can I take just slightly off topic? That I think was also the big benefit of learning what like, the lemonade stand I get game I made was using a fantasy console called Pico 8.
John:And you open up Pico 8, inside it is your code editor, your music maker, your,
Lazarus:Sprite
John:editor, and everything everything is contained. So it's it's just, like, you open it and you start, and you can see, you know, you can No. It's a minute, you can see the first thing on screen, and it's amazing.
Lazarus:It's so good. It's so good to have that. And it's, like, it will change your whole sort of attitude. You know, it's like the mental step. It's like going to the gym or something like that where it's like if you think of all the things you have to do before you go to the gym, it just sort of stops your mind and your body from doing it.
Lazarus:You're like, oh, man, I have to, like, drive there. I gotta do this. I gotta like and it's like no, like, okay, what if like you just like if you thought about working out you were immediately dressed and in workout clothes and you had your your weights right there and stuff like that. And it was just like that's the world of like having an easy dev environment to work in. So and I I think what you were saying also about the the lemonade stand feedback loop where you immediately know once you program something, you know, once you try something, you immediately see the results.
Lazarus:That's huge too. And so this is why I'm I'm a little bit this is part of my sort of general, and I think it matches with the HTMX concept, but I'm not a build process guy. And I know they can make build processes that are fast. This is like, you know, Node and NPM and every time you make a change it piles and yes, they've made that fast. They've worked on that quite a bit, but the overall concept of needing to sort of have this like compile step and and build step and you do all these things.
Lazarus:Like, just the more you can remove away from that and just, like, you change a file, you go to the page, it's different. You know? It's, like, it's a beautiful thing.
John:I love that. Yeah.
Lazarus:Yeah. So okay.
John:So It's just funny. Sorry. Just the the the I never put it together until right now about like, I always understood that I loved the fact that that that the Pico 8 system was closed and, like, had its limitations and it so it just got you to focus. I never really thought about it in terms of that I should make it when I open up my editor, whatever I'm using, feel that same way. I don't know why that just never really crossed my mind, but a 100%, that makes sense and is something I wanna go do.
Lazarus:Yeah. So okay. So let's if you don't, you know, if, maybe we can do a little bit of our own personal homework and I'll do a little bit of marketing homework. I'm gonna try to do, you know, not a ton because I don't want to spend too much time on anything because I am, you know, we're both busy. I know this.
Lazarus:Yep. But I am gonna start thinking a little bit about the data. What does the data look like in my industry? If I were to, you know, think of it in terms of marketing, maybe just my homework for myself will be to if if you think it's valuable,
John:definitely
Lazarus:in terms of getting better at marketing is, like, just to think about the data and maybe have something to to talk about in a future discussion. No. I think
John:I think that I mean, at the end of the day, whether or not you you end up using it in any of your marketing strategies, I guarantee you just going through that process of really taking the time to identify, you know, your your audience and where they live, and and trying to back it up with some insights will prove valuable to you.
Lazarus:Nice. And then if you don't mind having some homework, my my suggestion for you would be to, at random times over the next week or whatever, just like pretend you have an assignment of doing a hello world, some small example in HTMX, how quickly can you, from the time you have the idea to, to the time that the hello world exists and and how long does that take you and what can you do to, you know, review and optimize?
John:No. I have to.
Lazarus:There you go. What was it? Produce, review, and optimize. I mean, just like if it takes too long, then something is a little off, you know. Maybe it's just not, you know, whatever your development environment there's no there shouldn't be any delay in the eventual.
Lazarus:It takes a long time to get there, but eventually your development environment should be set up so that there's no delay. So a hello world should be, you know, trivial to start. And you wanna try and do it over and over again so you get that, like, muscle memory almost of, like, starting a project I
John:like that.
Lazarus:Making it happen.
John:No. I really, really like that. Yeah. No. I am, like, I'm the guy that I have, like, every language installed on my computer and all the and, like, when I was using Versus Code, like, all the extensions to operate every single 1, and it's like, I'm not even using
Lazarus:any of them. They just are there to help the need
John:to put them there. And and if I I think, you know, pairing that back to, like, this is what I'm going to use is a is it makes so much sense, and it just it feels so foolish to not have, put that together before. Yeah. So I like that. That's good homework.
John:I'm gonna work on that for sure.
Lazarus:Alright. Sounds good. Well
John:I know. I feel like we've I feel like I kind of took over most of the conversation today.
Lazarus:No. No. This is perfect. I thank you very much for joining and for, you know, talking and agreeing to come on. This is an, extremely useful, I think.
Lazarus:And I was this is, exactly what I was hoping for. So Amazing. I really I appreciate it.
John:And I appreciate you pushing me through my, my anxiety to do it.
Lazarus:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know.
John:I don't mind being open and honest about the fact that I was terrified to to get on and do this, which is weird because I can stand up at a trade show and talk to every single person that walks by. But See. There's something about this This
Lazarus:is the
John:like, oh my god.
Lazarus:Yeah. I think I'm the I'm the total opposite in terms of those things because I There you go. This you know, there's just some things if I had to go and talk to a crowd of people, I'm not gonna lie, that'd be pretty difficult for me. Yep. There you go.
Lazarus:Yep.
John:May you know, I maybe over time, we're gonna you know, we might actually improve each other.
Lazarus:Yep. Yep. Marketing, development, life. Alright. Yep.
Lazarus:Sounds good. Okay.
John:2, 000 people. Well, I I appreciate your time and and really thanks for having me on the Talk Team.
Lazarus:It was it
John:was a lot of fun.
Lazarus:No. No. Thank you. Look forward to it. Alright.
Lazarus:Yep. We'll talk to you later. Bye. Bye.
