Getting started with htmx: A John Dietrich® Story
I wore my HTMXs on.
Lazarus:Oh, nice. Yeah.
John:Just for that. Nice.
Lazarus:What do I have with HTMX around here? I've got the book in the other room, but Something else. But I do have a sweatshirt, actually. So hang on. I don't have it on me right now.
Lazarus:Oh, wow. Nope. Can you hear me? Yep. Okay.
John:Good. Just making sure. Can't come in. So oh, how have you been?
Lazarus:Good. Yeah. Yourself?
John:Yeah. Good. Busy, which has been good. But
Lazarus:Yeah. I've I've seen you've, been posting some marketing stuff on, Twitter recently.
John:Yeah. Yeah. Trying to, you know, do some knowledge stuff from my actual career on the day to day. You know? I can't just, can't just be a reply guy and all the, tech influencers all the time.
John:You know?
Lazarus:Right. I
John:mix it up a little bit.
Lazarus:Yep.
John:Well, yeah. How about yourself? Obviously, you've been, I've I've been noticing you actually did a project with HTMLX. Yeah?
Lazarus:Yeah. So I actually I do quite a few. I I don't really post, you know, many of the actual project because it just because, you know, it's like, basically, I have worked h t m x into most of the work that I do. Nice. Because that's it's all most of the projects I do, I sort of created from the beginning.
Lazarus:So Yeah. You know, I work for different clients, but I'm the only one working on each project. So I can kind of make those decisions, which is nice.
John:Yeah. Don't have to go through, ticketing process on Jira or anything.
Lazarus:Yeah. And I have a couple of clients who really want that. And then I'm just like, you know, it's just not that efficient when you're a solo dev Yep. To spend a lot of time there. Like, I know at a bigger company, it would make a lot of sense.
John:Yeah. Of course. Yeah. It's like that whole there was that whole the whole Twitter drama with, you know, levels. Right?
John:I think he was just talking about how he ships and everyone that, like, clearly worked for larger organizations. Like, what? You can't do that. That doesn't work. Yeah.
John:Well, when it's you sitting on your couch, I mean, you know, whatever whatever helps you get stuff out the door. Yeah.
Lazarus:I remember him arguing against, Git, like
John:Oh, yeah.
Lazarus:A couple years ago, and I was just like I was like, man, when this guy discovers Git, like, he's gonna be unstoppable. But you know, it's like because it's like he's still just doing these really, you know, moving a single file, and it's just so much easier to to commit and push than it is to, like, deal with file management. So
John:Git was, was one of you know, there have been a few things that have happened to me throughout, like, learning just basic coding stuff that have been the sparks of like, oh my goodness. Like this does so much, and learning how to use Git was one of those moments of just like, oh, and that like, I can just create a new branch. And then if I mess everything up, it doesn't really matter. It's okay. Like, I don't have to think that, oh, I blew a whole bunch of time and then had to revert and lose everything.
John:And then I was like, oh, I could use this for writing stuff too. And that way, you know, and I started using it, like, for everything, basically.
Lazarus:That's awesome. That's something you know, I don't know why I haven't thought of really using Git for writing.
John:Yeah. It's great. I mean, it's a great tool. You can do separate branches and then merge them into your main story if you're writing fiction. Or if you're writing nonfiction, you know, still you can get if you go off on a tangent on something else.
John:And then most more than anything, it's just like it I'll you know? And then obviously, you can use GitHub, and then you have a nice cloud backup or a private repo somewhere too. Anyways, I've I ended once I learned it, I was like, oh, this is incredible. I'm gonna use it for basically everything.
Lazarus:That's awesome, actually. I don't know why. It's funny. I never thought of doing that because I'm just maybe the writing tools, I don't use like soft I don't use like the same tool set for sort of writing. So it's like doesn't feel like it's in the Git world if it's like a open office dotods file or something and like but yeah, if it's just a text file, what a perfect I mean, even if it is something like that.
Lazarus:But Yeah.
John:Yeah. You can always commit it as a file and just, you know anyways, it I have I have found it. I do really like using Git. It was but that was just one of those, like, oh, this is a really fascinating thing. Like and and I can use this in a whole bunch of areas.
John:And then only after is when I learned that Adobe I guess they had they have, like, their own, like, file management, like, sort of Git, but it's I'm just like, this is way more complicated. And I could just use Git, and then I don't have to keep renaming, you know, this file dot finals_final for real underscore Yeah.
Lazarus:Legitimate last one. The Adobe system.
John:Yeah. Basically.
Lazarus:The the official Adobe system.
John:That's definitely the one everybody adopts. Yeah. Oh, man. Anyways.
Lazarus:Now Git's huge though for like just for general development, like, you know, sort of being able to kind of do almost anything. I mean, it's like, you know, if you can code that's good but having some knowledge of git and I don't even pretend to know git that well anymore. I used to work with a lot of bigger teams
John:and then I
Lazarus:was like oh yeah Like you gotta do like this and this and I felt like I knew it better. Now I'm just like, you know, switch branches, commit, merge branches, push code. Like anything beyond that, I'm like, oh, man. If there's a problem with this, I'm gonna be in trouble.
John:You know, I think that's, yeah. That's if you could do that, you can, you know, get away with quite a bit. That's for sure. I remember I keep trying to teach myself rebase, and then I'm like I'm like, oh, this is like, I I've definitely messed things up way more trying to learn rebase than just doing branches and switching itself.
Lazarus:Yeah. Same here. Like and every now and then, I have to look it up, and I'm like, oh, no. Not again. Exactly.
John:Although I will say learning how to use, like, neovim has helped me feel more comfortable with the rebase interactive editor because I don't think I ever really paid attention to Vim. And so when the interactive git rebase would open up, I would just it was like that panic mode of, like, I don't know what to do here. I gotta get out of this thing immediately.
Lazarus:Why why aren't my moves doing what I expect them to do?
John:And I was like, oh, it's Vim as default. I get it now. Now I understand.
Lazarus:Oh, really? Yeah. I I have never used Vim or NeoVim. So I am. No.
John:I'm the that's my level of tech is I just like to be silly and learn a little bit about all of the things that people are talking about. Nice. Yeah.
Lazarus:Never never enough is
John:never enough to put it to good use, you know. Just enough to Right. Just enough to be like, oh, yeah. I can use that a little bit. Cool.
John:Anyways, I like your hat by the way. I know it's off topic but where's that?
Lazarus:Oh, thank you. It's, so Wood's Coffee is actually like a coffee chain on the in the Pacific Northwest. Oh, nice. Can't really they don't actually have it on this one, but their logo is, just like, like a tree. Like any tree you'd see, like a pine tree, basically, that you'd see, like, in the Pacific Northwest.
Lazarus:Nice. And all their their stores, it's just like a it's like a nice Starbucks.
John:Yeah.
Lazarus:In my opinion. Like Starbucks has gotten sort of very I don't know. It it doesn't have a like a homey feel to me anymore when I go in there. It just feels very corporate and Yeah. This has like what I imagined Starbucks used to feel like back in the day.
Lazarus:Nice.
John:I might have to check it out. I'm actually going out to the Pacific Northwest not too far from now. So be out in Seattle area. So yeah.
Lazarus:Okay. That's where that's where I go to usually. Well, Seattle and then north of Seattle.
John:Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I'm moving to Seattle and then I'm going, I can't even remember. It's to the east, though, kind of back into the country.
John:I just can't remember where it is. I have to look it up. This I'm very good at memorizing travel plans and being
Lazarus:on top of my head. Trip or
John:something? Exactly.
Lazarus:Okay.
John:Although I'd I'd be lying if I said I would be any better if it was personal trip as well. I'd probably still be like, let me go ask my wife because I I know I'm going somewhere, but I couldn't tell you where. Yeah. Oh, so you ready to talk some HTMLX today? How do you wanna how do you wanna make this
Lazarus:go? Yeah. So so I'm thinking like, you know, maybe, you know, web develop so what's, like, I I guess step 1 is kind of, like, big picture goals and, like, projects that you've sort of considered or or, like, are we at the project level yet? Or is it still sort of, like, you know, seeing what is just trying to, like, make something or, like, where are you now with, like, just web development in general?
John:I would say oh, man. It's so hard because I, like, jump around so much. But I I definitely have, like, project ideas that I've started and abandoned, you know, like like every good web dev. So I have lots of things
Lazarus:that I've kind of You have a lot of domains.
John:Yeah. I you you know what? For the first time in a long time, I didn't renew a couple. I was it's like I got
Lazarus:a I did the same thing recently. I let I let them die.
John:Look. I just can't. I'm not gonna do it. I just gotta get rid of it. So Yeah.
John:And then, of course, right after doing it, I felt like I saw the there was a meme that went around that was, you know, give up on your dreams or $12 domain renewal. Yeah. I was like, I gotta give up on the dreams.
Lazarus:I I heard it described once as an optimism tax. Nice. I thought that was certainly good.
John:That is good. I'm like so, I mean, as far as, like, I I would say I'm probably more in the just still playing around stage versus having anything very specific that I am looking to build at this point. But you know what? The the problem is and I always struggle with that of, like, picking what to actually just start on and work on. Probably why, like I said, I know how to do a whole bunch of stuff a little bit, because I just get to a point where, like, I getting to the next level, I don't know I don't know the right direction necessarily.
John:So, you know, I would I think it'd be cool to build a project and do something together. That would be you know, I would find that very fascinating.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, so I guess, like, most of the developers, I would say, that I know or or just have kind of worked with in the past, the main thing that happens is, like, they have to build something. That's the sort of impetus for a big change is like, usually it's getting hired and like, okay, you know, you're able to do something but then somebody trusts you enough to hire you to build whatever.
John:Yeah. Yeah.
Lazarus:So that's that is, you know, that's sort of number 1. Because without that it's like, you know, there's always that kind of like you sort of fall into an unclear whether I should continue this or do something new and it's like, you know, when there's some sort of, I don't wanna say forced, but like, you requirement or something like that, even if it's somewhat self imposed. You know, that's kind of a big motivator.
John:I mean, I know we went into it quite a bit, but that was like you said last time we chatted. But, like, the the having like the Pico 8 limitations of what you could do with game dev was that exact kind of impetus for me. Like, okay, I'm gonna build a game, and like I can build it in here, and there's only so much I can do. So, you know, I don't need to worry about like should I make this 3 d, or should I go into a whole different direction, or make it multiplayer? It's like, nope.
John:I'm I could do something, so I'm just gonna do this. And so, yeah, that is a huge benefit when you just have the do this thing, and you kinda have to do it.
Lazarus:Yeah. So you so you said you do you have to do some development or you sort of have to do some coding for your work as well sometimes?
John:Yeah. So that one we did, it was a WordPress. The last, like, big project I worked on was in the development side would have been a new, a new front end WordPress site. So we rebuilt we built the the templates from scratch and even kinda did a modified back end, for WordPress. But that was kind of the last, like, big project.
John:But same thing. It was like, this needs to be done. It got I was able to focus on it for a couple months, and we just knocked it out. So Yeah. But that was the last one.
John:And then, before that, I was I redid, 1 a part of our back end for our customers actually when it comes to, the, like, project management settings and rebuilding the user dashboard for that. That was in
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:Yeah. That was in dot net. So and that was my first time really building anything in dot net. So that was an interesting
Lazarus:Interesting. Yeah. I've never I've never used dot net before.
John:So Yeah. This was my first time. I had to yeah. It was wild. I I was like, I think I can figure this out.
John:And then, you know, there's a few moments of I don't know what I'm doing, but eventually got there. So, you know, felt good.
Lazarus:Nice. Nice. Sounds familiar. Yeah.
John:No. Go ahead. Sorry.
Lazarus:Well, okay. So so you've got these sort of one off kind of random projects for work Yeah. That you that you have to build every now and then. Yes. And so just sort of hearing that and if that's, you know, wordpress, dot net, other stuff.
Lazarus:So this is actually, like, in my opinion, a really good scenario, for an h t m x type integration because it doesn't require, like, doesn't require you to start the whole project over from scratch. Right. You could integrate something in and it kind of works on any stack. So you could integrate it even into WordPress. I did a one of the conversations I had was with, Andrew, and he was building stuff, for WordPress.
Lazarus:You know, using, using HTMLX, and and that was kind of a whole, like, opened up a world of opportune of options. Because, like, a lot of stuff on WordPress, you're sort of limited, you know Yeah. In the sort of stuff you can do. So, like, if you're doing it I don't know. You said a dashboard was one of them, or that was the dot net one?
John:Yeah. That was the dot net one. But I mean, we're we're going to be for what it's worth, we are actually going to be very soon redoing some of our front end website. So, there might be some really interesting opportunities. We're currently in the process of, like, deciding what things we wanna change and how much dev time we can put towards making them happen.
John:But that's coming up probably in November, where we're gonna go through some changes on that. So that, you know, could be a good opportunity to introduce some interesting pieces of HTMLX to it.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean so so, like, something like a dashboard, like, that's actually kind of perfect because you could have, like, just a little section in there, you know, import h t m x into the whole page. Mhmm. But you could have a section in there that has all any kind of interactivity you'd want. You don't even have to worry about the rest of the page.
Lazarus:Yep. And you could sort of, you know, focus on it. Like, I don't know what sort of data you got, but know, this might be something where you if there's, like, I guess what I would kind of, like, what I'm imagining is, like, if you were to, like, swing for the fences in, like, what would be kind of, like, really fancy for this for your company that they would never expect, you know, that would kind of like, you know, is there something that makes sense along those lines or is it like, I'll just give you an example. You know, I put up that that little you know, the stuff I work on is pretty dry. It's I'm not doing, like, photo sharing apps Right.
Lazarus:These kind of things. I'm working with data, large amounts of data, analysis, you you know, kind of collaboration tools.
John:Mhmm.
Lazarus:So the thing I put up, recently, was a a build text comparison. So Yeah.
John:That's awesome.
Lazarus:Pieces of build text. And it's like, you know, tried to make it look nice, all that kind of thing. Mhmm. But the real, like, thing about it was that everything was interactive, and it didn't reload the page. And this, you know, was all this is HTMLX sort of influence, and also like what people try to do with SPA stuff.
Lazarus:Mhmm. Where it's like you never leave your context. You do a little lookup, the bill is selected, it's chosen, you go to the other one, you do a little lookup, and, you know, you're not having to, like, fill out a form first and then hit submit, and then you get to your next page. You know, it's just this sort of better interaction Yeah. For relatively dry data.
Lazarus:And, like, not that your company has dry data or, you know, I don't know exactly what the Yeah. The sort of stuff that's on the dashboard is. But
John:Well, so there is a project that we're looking to do right now, which is the idea is that I'll give you the very top level. It's like an our project management software is made to, you know, handle multiple construction projects across wherever they are doing builds in, you know, whether it's different countries or, you know, locally, whatever it ends up being, however many projects they have on the go. And so what we were actually looking to do, which could be a really good fit here, is something for like an organizational health score. So the idea that all all the projects are at different phases at any given time, they have different amounts of overdue tasks. Certain overdue tasks are more important to the the project remaining on time and budget.
John:And so we already are collecting all of this data. And so the idea is like, how do we how could we turn what we know derails a project into, an organizational health score that could be easily accessible for the executives who, you know, aren't gonna have the the, detail level of every project that any individual project manager might have, something that they can quickly and easily see within the within the tool, you know, on their dashboard. So Yeah. I mean, it seems like that could be something right up the alley.
Lazarus:That sounds awesome because I think you are familiar with what that data is in a way that, you know, other people probably aren't. And so you're in a position to understand the data and probably understand what it is that people want to see out of it. Yep. You know, this is like I always feel like the industry expertise, like for any developer. Number 1, if you wanna really like make a difference, make a big impact, make tools that matter, that are successful, like, if you have the domain knowledge and you, like, understand it at, like, a deep level, you're the perfect person to be programming.
Lazarus:Well, you know Something like that.
John:No. That's that, like, it I I totally agree with you, because our our tool was built from somebody who ran a general contracting company for years, and then built this tool internally in order to help manage their own projects. And it's just when you see the difference between some of the other tools that were built by, you know, funded companies who were just trying to, you know, get in on a a good market, when you watch people use it for the first time, it's really fascinating to see the difference between like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. Like, it should work this way versus just a bunch of things put together in order to, you know, be a, digitize your spreadsheet, you know, basically is all that the other tools do.
John:Whereas this is like it actually has, like, workflows and things built in and automation built in to handle what makes sense when you're working on an actual job site. So, just Yeah. You know, that domain knowledge, like you said, it's just and it's a it's a huge benefit, and I can't imagine with things like as AI coding tools and stuff continue to get more popular, that that's not gonna be the separator. Is you if anyone can build a tool, the peep the tools that are gonna get used are the ones built by people who understand the actual industry that they're in,
Lazarus:you know? Yeah. No. That's a huge, you know, I I think of like this is and this is just my opinion, you know, but but like you have these kind of like you can be an amazing developer, but if all you've ever done in your life is develop, then like you're gonna be someone else's tool for accomplishing their which is great. Like, that's a great career.
Lazarus:You can be an amazing developer and build a great career. When you sort of start to, you know, if you've done things outside of development and really sort of explored other things, and and good developers do this of development and really sort of explored other things, and and good developers do this too with their own hobbies and stuff. But, yeah, that's when, like, business ideas, like, true kind of, like, I don't wanna say wealth because that's not like that's just like, you know, but like real businesses that I've seen. Some of the biggest some large businesses and a lot of the a lot of the small successful businesses that like have supported people's lifestyles and given them, you know, a lot of it's like they are from people who who stepped outside of development or came from somewhere else into development. So, yeah, I think that's really it's a it's a huge benefit.
Lazarus:Mhmm.
John:So, you know, as far as actually doing something with HTMLX and implementing it, how do you, let's just say we're gonna do it with that, with that new dashboard idea that we're coming up with.
Lazarus:Yeah. So I love it. I think that's good. Yeah.
John:What, you know, how would you go about it?
Lazarus:Yeah. So so okay. The first thing would be to just, like, build it in, you know, make it look the way you want. Mhmm. And try to figure out what's gonna go into it.
Lazarus:So, like, you know, the h t m x part of it is almost like almost comes at the end. Okay. And it's kind of like in my mind, you can just build it as even if there's gonna be no h tmx, there's gonna be no interactivity. You know, you want to think about what that sort of stuff would be. At a minimum, you could use h tmx to make it live, you know, add just one little line that will make it pull every 10 seconds to pull new data in.
Lazarus:So that's, like, just bare minimum. Mhmm. Gonna work no matter what. Which is cool already. Yeah.
Lazarus:Because, you know, you could say, like, oh, watch this. You know, someone make a change to the data, like, in another state Mhmm. And what you know, you got you executives, like, just look at your dashboard and, like, oh, wow. There it is. You know?
John:See it updated.
Lazarus:Score is updated. Yeah. No. That's actually the biggest thing. Is cool.
John:Yeah. Because it you know what? It's funny that you say that because there's lots of tools that, you know, some big tools that I work on with, like, not our product, but, like, HubSpot as an example. And, you know, it has no, like, dynamic reloading or anything. I mean, if you're if you make a change, oftentimes it doesn't even, like, show up unless you manually refresh,
Lazarus:Yeah.
John:You know, the page. So the, you know, the idea of using HTMLX to easily add some of that live polling would be, you know.
Lazarus:Yeah. And I mean, part of the reason for that is, like, in the past, you have had to make a decision between either you're gonna use just like a multi page app, like sort of standard setup, or you're gonna switch your whole system over to this like JavaScript framework, SPA, and that's just like in, you know, you're choosing between these like 2 very different things. And it's like that's why people went with the SPA because they're like, well, I want that live reload, you know? Right. Without refreshing the page.
Lazarus:And it's like you think you have to sort of do this whole thing to accomplish that. And now, you know, there's other tools like h tmx, but really, like, h tmx is is one of the easiest ones to kind of implement something like that. Yeah. You don't need to like install anything at a deeper level, you just need one include of htmx at the top and then you've got this kind of stuff. So it's pretty perfect.
Lazarus:This is why like I've been saying on the on the podcast, you know integrating it into old projects. But I think it's more than just old projects. It's the fact that it's got that works on any stack Right. Mentality. It's more about the web.
Lazarus:It's more about the HTTP, makes it sort of integrate nicely. So when you built your tool, the the the bill comparison tool, did you go into it, with the idea of, like, you wanted to build something using HTMLX? Or did you go into it as, like, this
John:is something that you just you needed to build, and then as you were building it, you thought, you know, oh, this is a great use case for HDMI.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, so I've built, you know, stuff like this before, and what I've done, like, 10 years ago Mhmm. I would have built it, and I probably still would have worked hard to make it like interactive and sort of reload and do a lookup, but I would have used like jQuery. Right. And just kind of built my own AJAX calls.
Lazarus:And that would have been a pain, and I would have had, like, a large JavaScript file associated with it. And more recently, I probably would have used Livewire, Laravel Livewire
John:Oh, yeah.
Lazarus:Which abstracts away a lot of that, difficulty and it like you don't have to you don't there's a lot less setup if you have Livewire in place. It's much more you just think of the logic of how the page should work and it works nicely. I love Livewire for that.
John:I've never used that before. I haven't tried it.
Lazarus:Yeah. So Livewire is great. You do have to be a little bit steeped in, like, the Laravel world for it to you know, it's like you have a huge advantage if you already know Laravel to be able to use Livewire.
John:Gotcha. The
Lazarus:problem with Livewire, is that you do have to update. You have to get a version that's gonna work with your setup. First of all, you have to be using Laravel. Right. It has it's just a package that goes along with it.
Lazarus:This is Laravel project, but this Laravel project is Laravel 5.4. Mhmm. They're now on 11, I think. So it's behind. Right.
Lazarus:You know, that's prob that's my fault. But it's the truth. And it would take a lot of time and effort for me to update it. And, I don't even know if Livewire would work Would be possible to install on a Laravel 5.4 project. It's just not worth even exploring.
Lazarus:So that's one of the issues with these really nice kind of handy tools. There's other issues with Livewire in a situation like this, but it would have done the job and it probably would have been if I'd had it all set up it would have been a pretty decent use case for it. Yeah. But htmx was kind of the ideal minimalist, kind of, you know, tool for that sort of thing because I didn't have to think about what platform I was using.
John:Right.
Lazarus:All I needed was access to the, you know, the header of the of the HTML file that's included in the end, and then I can just start using all the attributes. So
John:Yeah. That is pretty wild. I mean, I've I've only I think even since the last time we chatted, the only thing I've done is play around with the the color demo. Just because I just even found that super fascinating to be able to do it and, like, how easy it was to implement. But, you know, so if, if you were going into the project with HDMX as like, you knew you were gonna use it.
John:I know you kinda mentioned you could still build it out, and then, you know, you kinda tack it on towards the end. Is there any benefit to to building it, you know, with say if you know you wanna use HTMLX, like thinking it through, is there any benefit into, I guess, the kind of the architecture of how you're gonna actually implement things if you're starting from that position versus, like, bolting it on afterwards.
Lazarus:Yeah. And because I I sort of, you know, I've built so many things like this, I did sort of I think I just wasn't worried about that. Like, I would say for that particular tool, I spent literally 90 90 to 95 percent of the time on the way it looked. Really? I didn't even the coding part was so trivial, I want to say.
Lazarus:It's probably like I don't I mean not trivial because, you know, there's like some background knowledge that I had that made it easy. But, yeah, I spent almost all my time on the layout Interesting. Figuring out how that was gonna work. Well, for what it's worth, it
John:looks very good. So I just No. Thank you. You did a good job on it. It looks great.
John:Yeah.
Lazarus:But, yeah. I mean, you know, so I I would keep in mind the things to keep in mind are what you want to be interactive. You know, at the lowest level, it's just a background refresh Right. Which is good. And then then there's some questions with the background refresh also.
Lazarus:You can do some cool stuff like let's say you have bars or something or like, you know, I don't know how you're thinking of doing this score but, you know, you could do like a like kinda like a circle where a 100 is the the max, and then it, like, kinda you know, there's lots of different ways you could display a score. Yeah. I'm thinking of I'm thinking of the lighthouse score.
John:Right. Yeah.
Lazarus:So, like, you could have it you know, so so your your your reloading automatically could also work with transitions so that if the score changes it like the bar just kind of moves on its own rather than immediately popping
John:up. Yeah. Being already done you can actually do the little animation to make it look
Lazarus:Yeah. More And so I would think of it as almost like a progressive steps of interactivity. You know? Okay. No interactivity.
Lazarus:You could do this no HTMLX and just have it be a static part of the page, you refresh to see the new data. Right. That's fine. Then you could add in, okay, it's that section of the page is gonna refresh every 5 seconds. That's step 2.
Lazarus:Step 3 would be, okay, now we're gonna refresh, but when it comes in you're gonna have nice things happen, you know, it's gonna like just transition from one class to another. Then you can go further and like I don't know exactly you have to think about or you know we could talk about what the other layers of that interactivity could be. Like can you can you change any parameters? Can you, you know, are there different tabs within that where you wanna see, like, within this project, here's the 3 different reports we wanna show, and so maybe there's different tabs.
John:So Right.
Lazarus:Yeah. Like, what, you know, right now, all I've sort of heard is a score. Yeah. But it's presumably made up of different things. Are those can the user change any of those?
Lazarus:Or
John:so, you know, obviously, you know, we are still this is definitely an idea that's early days. But, ideally the way I kind of had envisioned it is that all of the the underlying stuff that is changeable and and allows for people to add in new information based on any of the projects would all happen outside of the updating of the score. The score would be more of of the overview. However, I would like to be able to take it and and allow it to be sendable, like, as a report, which I don't know if that's gonna that probably wouldn't have too much to do with HTMX. But the idea that, you know because executives might not always wanna log in to the dashboard, but just give them something that they can, you know, check on their phone, check on their email.
John:But, yeah, you know, it's kind of funny, because I think the the idea of, like, the live updating dashboard and adding in some kind of animations or things that just make it look nice, and inter and update as the information is updated, so it would need to be pulling and grabbing new information. To be honest, that would be a huge win right there. Like Yeah. Even just doing that would be people would see that and go, oh, wow. Like, this is this is really great.
John:Like, I could see things happening in real time as things change on the on each of our job sites because stuff is changing constantly. And, you know, new reports are being filed, things happen. You know, safety incidents need to be updated on and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, budgets change, new materials need to be ordered, and all that stuff's happening all the time. So to be able to update it continuously in real time, so, you know, when you know that when you're logging in and looking, not only are you seeing it right when you log in, but if you, you know, you turn away to talk about it and look back, you might have, new data on there.
John:I think would be something that, would actually be a really big win just just on that alone. So
Lazarus:Yeah. And just for some background, how many of these are you showing at once? Like, is this something have you thought about sort of like you'd see all your projects and you can scroll through them, or is it like you're on the project page, you see that one?
John:So how our current, we call it the critical completion monitor, but how that's currently set up is it does have all of your projects that you can kinda scroll through as but what I was thinking is you could add the organizational score on top of that while also displaying the individual scores on each of the projects that's showing. So that could be an area where, you know, it would be different pieces would be updating, separately potentially.
Lazarus:Yep. Interesting. Okay. So okay. So I think I'm yeah.
Lazarus:So if you're showing more than 1 at once, you know that is a really that's a big benefit to being able to sort of have it update on its own Mhmm. For sure. Because, yeah, you can just kinda like sit back and watch them change and, like, yeah, leave it. Leave a browser tab open or something like that.
John:Yeah. Yeah. And actually that is, you know, just from my knowledge of HMX and what I so I guess in my head I didn't really understand how you could update the individual pieces. It always, I feel like and because I haven't even gotten through everything yet, obviously, but I always thought that it was more it's like, does HTMLX work as like a, full page refresh, like, when you do the pulling, but you can just choose what sections of the page to swap out for different,
Lazarus:code? Yeah. So so you've got options, and part of it depends on what you have access to to like change. So the way that I would set it up, I'd have like the overall page on the back, which is like, you know, let's just call it the dashboard, which loads like your headers, everything, your background, all your stuff, and then it has the dashboard. But the dashboard itself Mhmm.
Lazarus:Then could be broken up into, you know, maybe this widget. I'm gonna call them widgets because I kinda hate that word, but, like, that's what everybody uses. It's a word.
John:Yeah. I mean it
Lazarus:works. Yeah. So you've got, like, your dashboard widgets, and then, you know, I would probably separate those each into their own, like, files of like just it's like a code snippet, you just include it. So that if you just want to change that, you know. So I don't know what your background setup is.
Lazarus:So there's different options. My preference would be to have them be their own files, their own little snippets, so that And what HTMLX can do is you set up a route that just pulls that snippet and it can put it wherever you want. So you set your target, which is where the widget is, you set your route, and then that route goes to that one little section and just responds with that and it puts it there. Okay. That's one option.
Lazarus:That's, like, to me, probably, like, if you have the access and the ability to set up, you know, those different files, that's probably the best. But you also have the option, and this is what I've used, this is what the, Andrew, who said he was working with WordPress, did because he didn't have access to, in in this particular project, the ability to just, you know, create a little snippet and return that within WordPress. WordPress just you hit a URL it returns the whole page. Right. But HTMLX has a nice option for that where you can hit that URL, return the whole page, and then you use the attribute hx select.
John:Okay. Yeah.
Lazarus:H x select, you set which div ID from that you want to pull. So it'll just throw away everything else and take everything in that one div ID and put that into your target.
John:Interesting. So even though it's returning the whole page, you just are ignoring whatever it is that you don't wanna actually change.
Lazarus:Exactly. You just you can pick and choose, you know, by ID or by CSS selector, you know, whatever sort of thing. So that sort of lets you say, okay, like, for simplicity's sake, you know, you might just have access to one URL, one page, and you just want to return that. And then you can use your h x select to pull different parts from it if you want.
John:Okay. That's really cool. That is, I I'm trying to think, like, again, I am I am the least technically inclined person probably that, gets involved in the back end stuff. I I I just like it. You know, it's just one of those things.
John:I just find it fascinating and interesting, but then I always get, you know, come up with a marketing idea and get sucked into marketing.
Lazarus:Back end gets you.
John:Yeah. There you
Lazarus:go. That's how they're gonna get you.
John:Oh, man. No. It really is. So okay. So let's say, I'm like, okay.
John:We're gonna do this, and we wanna do it with HTMLX. I'm gonna go back to my team and say, this is what I wanna do. You know, this is this is getting into a slightly different section of how to implement HTMX in your workplace. But, you know, what, do you have any I know you do it all yourself, so you don't have to fight with anybody.
Lazarus:I've got an advantage. No. So, I mean, I'll just tell you that this to me, this is an easy answer. You So first of all, just big picture, you are proposing to unlock something with that's already there. Like, you guys are already capturing this data.
Lazarus:And so if you can unlock that and make it truly useful
John:Mhmm.
Lazarus:You know, htmx aside, like, let's just say, like, one of the nice things about htmx is you're not making a big investment in, okay, we got to use this new technology, we're gonna have to redo our page, we're gonna have to do this that. Even if h t let's say you've just abandoned h tmx, you can still just build in HTML this idea, this widget, this dashboard thing, and it will work fine with no HTML. It will just you just refresh the page like you've always done. So there's no risk, you know, the risk is low of like we're not adopting any changes. We're just saying okay, you know, we're still going to be building this but we can add a bunch of fancy, you know, we can add stuff, we can do stuff with this that we've never been able to do.
Lazarus:Yeah. And you know, if that fails, if you just like whatever, you just decide you know what, I can't learn this right. I don't want to take this on right now. Whatever whatever. Yeah.
Lazarus:You can just build the HTML version and it's extremely useful still. It just maybe won't have the fancy stuff, but like you're not taking any And that's really the main problem to solve is, you know, how are you gonna display this? And this has nothing to do with HTMLX. How are you gonna, you know, lay this out so that it makes sense to the people who need to see it? Right.
Lazarus:Capture the data you need to, run the queries you need to, like all that stuff is going to be solved the same way no matter what other tech you use. And I would just like keep in the back of your mind, like, with htmx we're gonna be able to do some fancy things with this if we want to. You know, you can add a button that, you know, completely changes the whole widget and keeps it. But everything will be contained within that widget, But you could start to expand on it and you could say, like, you know, I don't know the space well enough to say but, like, you know, what if we were, you know, what if what would it look like if we finish this section of the project? And, you know, I don't know.
Lazarus:You could have buttons that sort of like either that or just pull different reports.
John:Yeah. Right. Right.
Lazarus:You could say like based on someone's access, you know, click this button to go to a separate report page. And, You know, just make it look and feel very dynamic and and you can just trust that you are gonna be able to accomplish that using htmx and and other tools because, you know, you can. Yeah.
John:You know, it's funny. Talking to you more about HTMX has given me just even a little bit more understanding, I believe, about it, but then it also is raising questions that might be foolish, but I love foolish questions. So in terms of, like, interactivity on page, what is the big difference between, like, using a a jQuery over HTMLX?
Lazarus:Yeah. So I don't think they're that far apart.
John:Oh, okay. Interesting. Because I do know some Jquery, like, I've used a little bit of it, and so I just the more I never, like because my HTMX journey is so new, I haven't, like, really put that together necessarily. But, that's just interesting to know, because I I as you were explaining it, I was like, oh, this kinda sounds like things with jQuery, but what's the is there a is is there any big benefit to using one over the other?
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, you know, I I so I used a lot of jQuery. I think of it as like a pared down version of some of the stuff that and, you know, jQuery, first of all you don't need the jQuery include, which actually at this point is a relatively large kind of it's a it's a big project at
John:this point. Right. Yeah.
Lazarus:And it does a lot of stuff. But yeah they never jquery never really made the ajax, like their version of that story very good.
John:It was
Lazarus:pretty good with, like, you know, selecting things was a huge benefit. Being able to, like, target something and have it have something happen to that based on targeting it. Like that was a big, you know, thing. But in terms of, like, like making AJAX requests to the server and placing data in the right spot, like, h t m x is just like your absolute pared down simplified version of that. You know, it's got sort of it's like you do hx get with the route, you do hx target with where you want to put it.
Lazarus:And like Yes. That's it. You just I mean, maybe hx swap to say like do I want to swap it out or do I want to place it inside? Yeah. You know, you might need to to play with it and add a couple more attributes.
Lazarus:But like that with jQuery would be, you know, you'd have like functions within functions. You'd have like fail cases. You'd have like all these different steps. So I think of it as similar but more targeted to, pulling data from the server and placing it into your page.
John:Okay. Oh, that's I like that. That's a good way to and I feel like of all the things, you know, what we do as an organization beyond having the domain knowledge to make something, you know, useful to the customers. Like, that's what we're doing. Right?
John:Finding ways to display and and bubble up important data, at the right time in a way that looks nice and is easy to use. So Yeah. And if HDMX can make that whole process easier because I you know, having done some jQuery, realizing, you know, I think when you mentioned it's just funny. You mentioned some things that, like, hit memories of trying to do stuff with, like, figuring out the error handling with jQuery and making sure sure that things are working properly. And
Lazarus:Yeah. And I I I'll just add one more thing just to, like, differentiate them now that I'm, like, remembering, my pain points with jQuery. It's like the general flow of jQuery is that you put all your JavaScript just like most JavaScript kind of set up, you know, at the bottom of the file and it's like there's you lose this, you know, locality of behavior. So with h tmx you're putting what's happening directly into the place where it's happening. Whereas with jQuery you'd maybe like put the ID there like, oh, like widget to update and then you'd have to search through your code and find, okay, where's my jQuery widget to update code?
Lazarus:That's where your stuff would actually happen. Whereas with HTMLX, that locality of behavior, where you're gonna swap out things, you'll see right there. That's where the h x get happens. That's where the target is. It shows you right there where is this targeting to, and then you can see that ID and see where that target is.
Lazarus:So
John:Right. And then That's basically because then within the within the within the route is where they would actually that that's where you just put the data that you're gonna replace it with. Right? Because but you have inside your when you're looking at, like, your front end page, you can easily see, like, yeah, this div is gonna get swapped, or this one is going to, you know, this text is gonna get changed or whatever it is, but it's right there next to the divs versus having to sort it out through your your background. Yeah.
Lazarus:Which, like, some people hate, but, I mean, honestly, it's fantastic. It's the best. Yeah.
John:I mean, I as somebody who has spent, you know, hours trying to figure out why something was changing in a certain way on the front end, and there's nothing about it that makes sense. And, like, you know, using jQuery with, like, classes, so it affects multiple things, and you don't know why it's affecting that thing. It's just
Lazarus:And you don't always put the jQuery in the same place. You know? Some file, it's gonna be, like, in this file, but not this one. And, like, you don't know which file the jQuery that's running is in or where it is. Exactly.
Lazarus:Exactly. It is, like, quite the process to track it down sometimes. So I don't miss that at all. I mean, that's one thing. I I don't think I would use jQuery for it very much anymore Yeah.
Lazarus:Unless the project is already, like, really steeped in jQuery, and I have to just kinda play with what's there.
John:Yeah. But if you're if you were gonna start, obviously, doing something new, your go to would be h t max over jquery now.
Lazarus:Yeah. Yeah. And probably if it was a completely new, I'd probably do some stuff with Livewire still. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
John:Yeah. That's Laravel seems to be having its moment in the in the sun right now.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, I use Laravel for everything. So Oh, yeah. Livewire is is close to my it's very integrates nicely with my workflow. But Yeah.
Lazarus:Yeah. I just I'm not that excited about keeping up with every version of Laravel all the time, and the same goes with Livewire. Although Livewire has been pretty good about not doing breaking releases, and Laravel's okay about that. But, you know, the h t m x sort of world, I don't even have to think about that. So I appreciate that.
John:That is nice. No. That I mean, that that's one of those things that doesn't always feel like a big deal maybe, like, right when you're working on the project for the first time, but then, you know, when you need to change something 5 years down the line.
Lazarus:Yeah. No. Exactly. And and it's gonna run fine. Like, that's that's the other thing is if you if you're talking to your team about, like, you know, it's if, like, you're not gonna have to deal with, oh, okay.
Lazarus:Like, next year we'll have to make sure we update everything and the year after that we'll have to make sure we update everything. Like, the code that you add to the system, if you don't touch it for the next 5 years, I don't think anyone will even notice. You know?
John:Oh, that's cool.
Lazarus:It's just not gonna be an issue. That's one of the things that I'm really kind of you know, this is like my first year of using h t m x, but I can already sort of see the the long term benefits, with the stuff that I have out there because I just don't need to think about it, updating and changing and all this stuff.
John:Yeah. Well, you've convinced
Lazarus:me. Well, so okay.
John:Yeah. No. That's great. And and that is something, like, I like, you know, in the selling it to a team that is not using it right now is, you know, is part of the process. And I think those tips of of why it could be beneficial to look into, you know, make a lot of sense to me.
John:So I think I think that's something that people will go for, which is exciting.
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, if and if you can if you put in I I don't know if you're the person who would do the design stuff too. Like, is that sort of would
John:you feel comfortable? Or I would be involved in that. I I usually play that role of being involved in all aspects of it, and I'm lucky enough to have people much smarter than me, much more talented than I am doing it with me. So that helps.
Lazarus:Gotcha. Okay. So you can so you could, like, you know, help come up with sort of the concept for this widget, for this page, for this section of the dashboard and sketch it out and maybe, you know, maybe you would do a prototype.
John:Right. Exactly. Yeah.
Lazarus:They might take it and sort of like gusset it up a little bit.
John:A 100%.
Lazarus:Yeah. Okay.
John:Yeah. Usually that's where I end my my, main involvement, that kind of stuff. It's like, here, this is a this could work here, try this. And then, you know, like like I said, I I have to get back to marketing usually, so you can't spend
Lazarus:too much
John:time doing
Lazarus:it. Gotcha. But yeah. I mean, if if that works on its own, then, you know, HTMLX can always be phase 2 Yeah. Where you start to add live stuff and things like that.
Lazarus:And that's sort of a nice thing about about it. You don't need to really be you don't need to be a 100%, you know, on board for everything at the beginning. You can sort of figure out what that tool is gonna look like first. Yeah. Make it work and then and then start to throw in the interactivity.
John:I do really like that. I never I never really put together the idea that, you know, because it works with basically everything that you can, you know, add it in quite simply, after the fact, if if needed. Because, you know, I know a lot of times when you you know, even like when we were thinking about launching a new part of our product before, there was quite a lot of discussion about framework, and do we stick with some of the frameworks we're using, or do we wanna update and go to something new? And, the fact that at least with the interactivity element, it could be like, well, you guys pick whatever stack you want, and then we can throw this on top and still make, you know, still make it look nice and pretty and and do all the cool interactivity that we that we needed to do without committing needing to commit to anything specific, you know, right now. So, yeah, I do really that is a that's a big selling feature to me.
Lazarus:Yeah. No. It's that's been a that's been a big part for me too.
John:Yeah. Nice. Well, I mean, I I was really, like, I don't wanna meander too much, but that what you what you shared, I was really excited to see with the with the bill, tool because that was the bill comparison tool. It was it was really nice. Like, even somebody who has nothing to do with ever needing to look at bills found myself playing with it.
John:Like, because it was just it was easy to use. It was easy to understand what it was doing. It the information, again, doesn't apply to me on a day to day, but it was still like I could glean information from it just from using that tool. Anyway, so it was did a really good job and I think it's important to to point that out.
Lazarus:No. Thank you. You're welcome. You know, most of the projects I do are including this one. This is for a private.
Lazarus:This is a, you know, this is a product that I actually license it to another company. So I own it. So that's why I felt okay, like, putting it out there. But most of the projects that I work on are private behind you know, it's behind a paywall. It's behind, you know, so it's like I don't actually share very much of my actual, you know, day to day work.
Lazarus:So I I try to share some of the lessons I learn along the way. But, yeah, it's it's fun to be able to put some, you know, visuals out there every now and then.
John:Yeah. No. It was really good. You know, it made me believe that you actually do use HTMX, you know, versus just talking about it. So Yeah.
John:Again, I keep getting lower and lower in the rung of people who like to cosplay as an h t m x person, because I keep finding out that all of you guys are actually using it and, like, getting good with it.
Lazarus:I thought
John:it was just about posting on Twitter for a long time. You know, I didn't realize. So It's
Lazarus:a very important part of it, though.
John:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I take my duty seriously.
John:So
Lazarus:Yeah. Yeah.
John:Oh, man. I so, like, I don't know where you wanna go from here for right now, but for me, like, I definitely am like I'm gonna go back and talk to everyone and be like, hey. I think this is something that we should do. We'd you know, like I said, it was early days where there's discussions about we want to do it. So now it's like, we could implement this, and and it would be an interesting opportunity to use something different and see how that interactivity, plays and how it works for our customers and if they find it useful.
John:Because if it is, you know, ideally, after doing it, people would realize the ease of use of adding in elements like that, and I'm sure there are other areas in the product where we could we could think about adding, you know, more, more interaction. You know, it's funny. I didn't really I don't know if this would actually work, but there was you know, like Robinhood, the app got I mean, everyone got they had to take it off before they went public because there was so much concern about the gamification stuff where it's like, you know, the little, like, confetti and all that stuff. They actually had to remove it before they went public. You know, people like that stuff.
John:And I wonder, would HTMLX be a good use case for something like that? Because if it's based on, like, you know, data that is changing, so obviously you need the I can't imagine it's very beneficial if it's not about, you know, something happening that would actually activate it, but then would it be something you could do?
Lazarus:Yeah. I mean, I I guess, like let me let me think about that because I'm I'm trying to think of what is there any sort of concrete example or something? Just something that I can,
John:you know,
Lazarus:base that are, like, I can think around because
John:Well, let's just say, like, in our case, this is it's kind of a silly example, but trying to figure out ways to make the the first run through of, like, operating, you know, creating your first project and giving some visual cue of, you know, celebration for somebody finishing, you know, putting in the information to start their first project within the system. Yeah. Something like that.
Lazarus:So okay. I I guess I I'd sort of say, you know, in some ways, yes. Like, it could definitely help with that. I think the main thing you maybe are are, like the main thing that we're missing is, like, an interactive, you know, it it it's not like, gonna do the sort of like animation aspect of it. Like that would be sort of I don't know exactly what but like a a third party kind of like, you know, you'd implement something, probably bring in a JavaScript file.
Lazarus:And then what you could do use h t m x for though is triggering those events. So usually a package like that is gonna like, you you call some function or you trigger some event and then you get like or like, you know, it like drops down something a modal and and lets you know stuff like that. So yeah, I would say h t m x, you know, I haven't done this a bunch but, it's very good with handling events. Okay. So you can use like h x on and you can set any event and it can load something from the server or it can, you know, you can call JavaScript directly in line based on the event.
Lazarus:So if there's if your code is set up to have events
John:Yeah.
Lazarus:Then you can sort of trigger those based on another thing you could do is is that same sort of polling thing where I'm just I'm just kind of brainstorming right now.
John:No. No. I'm not gonna hold you to anything. So
Lazarus:But, like, if you put a little HTMLX snippet on your page that was invisible, but it pulled, you know, every 10 seconds for has the user hit this milestone. And and how you track whether that milestone has happened, I don't know. Maybe it's like maybe they go through the process and once they've saved their their final like project name or something like that, you know, then it's like you could have a project a process that's running in the background that's just doing a poll same as the other, you know, same as as we sort of talked about for keeping things live. Mhmm. And then when it hits something it could either load in a full HTML snippet and like trigger something like show a modal, play something, trigger something.
Lazarus:So I mean, yeah, it's definitely, could be used for that but probably not by itself. You'd you'd wanna have something that has that more sort of visual, you know, depending on what you wanted to do for your for the gamification.
John:Yeah. You'd
Lazarus:want some other package.
John:Okay. No. That's interesting because that's I again, when thinking through that idea of, you know, trying to implement some of that stuff just to keep people engaged, I hadn't even really thought that I didn't even, like, cross my mind if it was even possible to do any of it with HD max, but that's something you know, that is just that's another project that I kind of presented because I just think it's you know, people like that stuff. Sometimes they love that stuff too much, but they you know, people love the bells and whistles. And if you can make it, you know, even just that slightly little more that little edge of, like, oh, yeah.
John:I wanna use this again because that gave me a little dopamine hit then Yeah.
Lazarus:You
John:know, huge wins. So No.
Lazarus:I mean, and I I, like, haven't worked with that stuff much, but I I think that stuff is cool. And, you know, you could have like a progress bar up at the top or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's like and you can see what the steps are and as you move through it, like, I don't know.
Lazarus:I I do think there's some cool opportunities for that. I haven't really done much of that, but I actually think especially when people are starting out using an app, that would be cool. Yeah. And definitely achievable.
John:Yeah. So Well, there you go. Now I've got a few things to think about.
Lazarus:Yeah. Alright. Cool.
John:Well, I mean, that's yeah. Like, it's so funny. I I think you might have even seen a tweet that I put out about sometimes when I'm in a conversation, then I feel bad because something interesting takes me away, and I just start thinking about that now. So now I'm just sitting here, like, now I just wanna go. I gotta go call a dev meeting, like, right away.
John:I'll then go talk to them right now and see what we can do. So but, but now
Lazarus:I am available for your questions and consulting needs.
John:That'd be great. Yeah.
Lazarus:Just keep that in mind, whether it's live on the podcast or privately. There you go. Just one if you have questions. On a From the team or from yourself.
John:Okay. No. That's huge. And then I was just thinking about, like, you know, potential future podcasts and things. Would you ever want to do something like building a like, just building something small together?
John:Yeah. I can actually stream doing it?
Lazarus:Yeah. Stream or I mean, yes. Maybe maybe stream live, maybe do maybe put up on YouTube, whichever. Yeah. I'd be
John:open to the phone. I'd I'd love to give that a try because because that I think that'd be interesting. And then to me, as for just because of the type of person I am, a 100%, that's where a lot more, like, questions and, oh, why are you doing it this way? And and how did that come up? And what can we do here?
John:Really start to flow for me. So I don't know. If that would be something you'd be into, I would love to do that. I do have a couple other, like, side project ideas that I wanna get off the get off the ground. Just, like, again, really small things.
John:Like, I wanna do a, because I started using Neovim, I would like to do you and you can, like, run them with different config files. And I was like, I don't as far as I can tell, one doesn't exist, but what if there was a website where people could upload their config files, and then you could try and run them live on the site, like through, Terminator, terminal emulator, and you could test them out. And then if you like them, you can download the file right from the site. You could vote on them. Top votes get displayed high in the page, that kind of stuff.
Lazarus:Nice. So
John:yeah. But I started doing it, and then I was like, oh my gosh. This I need to learn a lot more stuff. So
Lazarus:I was like The simulating of the running on the site sounds like the most intensive to me. The the Yes. Uploading files and the voting, that all sounds fine.
John:Yeah. Well, maybe we could tackle that stuff together. That would be because I feel like that would be a good, you could definitely see h t max being used with a lot of that kind of stuff with, like, voting and just, you know, displaying votes and and rankings and all that kind of stuff for for different uploads. But Yeah. Anyway, so that's one thing that I've been mulling around and could could use some help with if somebody was interested in doing it.
John:So
Lazarus:Yeah. No. That that sound that could be interesting for sure.
John:Alright. Cool.
Lazarus:Alright.
John:Alright. Well, I guess, you know, now as always, back to marketing for me.
Lazarus:So, Back to the grind as well. There you go. Back to programming. Perfect. The rest
John:of the day. I will let you know how the internal combos go and see, you know, see what kind of buying I get, and we'll,
Lazarus:you know, keep you in the
John:loop for sure.
